Episode 254

full
Published on:

22nd Nov 2023

Decoding Retail Media Networks: A Deep Dive with Andy Murray, Molly Rapert, and Rod Thomas

This week on the podcast, Brent is joined by fellow Walton College colleagues, Andy Murray, Molly Rapert, and Rod Thomas, to discuss their newly released white paper on retail media networks. The conversation dives into their research on retail media networks over the past few years, especially highlighting what exactly constitutes a retail media network, and emphasizing its omni-channel presence, utilization of first-party data, and closed-loop reporting. They continue on in the episode with a conversation around the transformative power of these networks in providing targeted marketing efforts and detailed insights into consumer behavior. They also stress the growing understanding and significance of retail media networks in the business landscape. Tune in to this episode for an enlightening exploration of this intersection between retail and media, and the unprecedented opportunities it presents for advertisers and marketers alike.

Transcript
Brent Williams:

Podcast brought to you by the Sam M. Walton

Brent Williams:

College of Business at the University of Arkansas. I'm your

Brent Williams:

host, Brent Williams. Together, we'll explore the dynamic

Brent Williams:

landscape of business, and uncover the strategies, insights

Brent Williams:

and stories that drive business today. Today, I have with me

Brent Williams:

three of my Walton College colleagues. I have Dr. Rod

Brent Williams:

Thomas, who is Associate Professor of Supply Chain

Brent Williams:

Management. I have Dr. Molly Rapert, who is Associate

Brent Williams:

Professor of Marketing. And I have Mr. Andy Murray, who is the

Brent Williams:

Executive Director and Founder of the Customer Centric

Brent Williams:

Leadership Initiative at the Walton College amongst some

Brent Williams:

other things, but well, welcome to the Be Epic Podcast.

Molly Rapert:

Thank you, Brent, we're happy to be here.

Andy Murray:

We're excited.

Brent Williams:

Well, today, we're highlighting a piece of

Brent Williams:

what I would call industry focused research around retail

Brent Williams:

media networks that, that the four of us have been working on

Brent Williams:

for over a year now. We've published a white paper last

Brent Williams:

September that we called Realizing the Promise of Retail

Brent Williams:

Media Networks. We have another one recently published. And, and

Brent Williams:

then we've got some on some academic work that's underway.

Brent Williams:

So I want to get to kind of that whole process of industry

Brent Williams:

focused research, but maybe let's just start with the

Brent Williams:

research itself. For many listening might not know what we

Brent Williams:

mean by a retail media network. So we probably should start

Brent Williams:

there. Andy, I'm gonna start with you. Tell the audience here

Brent Williams:

while I introduced you as the Executive Director of the

Brent Williams:

Customer Centric Leadership Initiative, you've had quite an

Brent Williams:

industry career. And, you know, have sort of a lot of your

Brent Williams:

career bridged this gap, a little bit between practice in

Brent Williams:

in academics. But so maybe I'll start with you. Tell me what a

Brent Williams:

retail media network actually is?

Andy Murray:

Well, if I can only define it with such, you know,

Andy Murray:

clarity that everybody could understand. It'd be amazing. But

Andy Murray:

you know, that's an interesting question. I was at the

Andy Murray:

beginnings of the shopper marketing world and one of the

Andy Murray:

first questions was, what is it? And it took forever to define

Andy Murray:

it, which I think is one of the challenges we have with retail

Andy Murray:

media networks, I think you when you look at that question, you

Andy Murray:

almost have to define it from the set of common core elements,

Andy Murray:

and then let it build out from there. Because the edges are a

Andy Murray:

bit murky in terms of where's that line and how you define it.

Andy Murray:

When we did the research, we probably got 30 different

Andy Murray:

responses to you know, what is a retail media network. But I do

Andy Murray:

think there's some common elements that we find that's

Andy Murray:

really important, that guided this research. We were looking

Andy Murray:

primarily at omni channel, it was looking at these advertise

Andy Murray:

as an advertising platform that had first party data, closed

Andy Murray:

loop reporting, where it really at the two core elements in its

Andy Murray:

ability to measure and be able to get that kind of clarity of

Andy Murray:

what's really happening in the in the transactional space of

Andy Murray:

advertising.

Brent Williams:

We're really talking about a advertising

Brent Williams:

platform, if you will, that the retailer is, you know, providing

Brent Williams:

for itself and for its partners. And I think that's a fair

Brent Williams:

statement.

Rod Thomas:

Yeah. When Andy said first party data, what do we

Rod Thomas:

mean by that? First party data refers to our shopping history,

Rod Thomas:

right? Traditional media with a lot of advertisement, we look

Rod Thomas:

globally, did we get a sales lift or not? With retail media,

Rod Thomas:

you have the ability to be very focused. They can track not only

Rod Thomas:

what you saw and were exposed to but what you actually bought.

Rod Thomas:

And that what you actually bought, that's the closed loop

Rod Thomas:

piece that he was talking about. So it is a micro targeted, or

Rod Thomas:

gives you the ability to be very micro targeted with your

Rod Thomas:

marketing efforts. You know, exactly if Molly was exposed to

Rod Thomas:

an ad last night, whether or not she bought. If Andy was exposed

Rod Thomas:

to an ad, whether or not he bought. And that level of

Rod Thomas:

feedback gives you the ability to target consumers more

Rod Thomas:

effectively. And it also lets you kind of constantly

Rod Thomas:

experiment with the ad you're giving everybody. So to me, it's

Rod Thomas:

the ultimate marketing tool, but I'm not the marketing expert,

Rod Thomas:

Molly jump in.

Brent Williams:

Well I was gonna jump to Molly there. You know,

Brent Williams:

Molly, you are the marketing expert, you and Andy. And you've

Brent Williams:

not only that you've really engaged industry throughout your

Brent Williams:

whole career in your classroom, which I think is something that

Brent Williams:

you've done so so well. But as you've gone through this process

Brent Williams:

of the research on retail media networks, I just wonder, what

Brent Williams:

are a couple of things that stood out to you?

Molly Rapert:

I'll say with respect to the definition, what

Molly Rapert:

was really interesting to me from the viewpoint of having

Molly Rapert:

talked to industry experts a year ago and then now this past

Molly Rapert:

year was how the specificity changed. I felt like last year

Molly Rapert:

in our conversations, people just refer to retail media

Molly Rapert:

networks, but no one was defining it in the same way as

Molly Rapert:

Andy said 30 disparate definitions, most of which had

Molly Rapert:

descriptors like the wild wild west attached to it. And now I

Molly Rapert:

feel like there has been some convergence of what it is, and

Molly Rapert:

they've moved past that into, okay, exactly, what do we expect

Molly Rapert:

from it? And it's happened with a great deal of velocity.

Brent Williams:

Yeah. Well, you know, maybe I should ask this,

Brent Williams:

why is this such a big deal?

Andy Murray:

Well, it's really a fundamental shift in the way,

Andy Murray:

advertisers can go to market and connect with customers. And it's

Andy Murray:

new, I mean, Amazon, when they published in 2019, a $32 billion

Andy Murray:

take in ad spend, which hadn't really been pulled out on the

Andy Murray:

P&L and reported that way, a lot of jaws dropped collectively in

Andy Murray:

CMO land around the world of retailers saying that's a big

Andy Murray:

one, something's happening. And so if you look at what makes it

Andy Murray:

a big deal, part of it is the money that's been moving into

Andy Murray:

the space of the velocity it's been moving, could be well over

Andy Murray:

100 billion globally, in 2026. So that's a lot of money moving

Andy Murray:

into this space. And when you get that kind of money moving,

Andy Murray:

something's happened, right? I mean, and to pay attention of

Andy Murray:

what is that thing that's happening is really the question

Andy Murray:

we've been asked to kind of look at or been tasked to look at,

Andy Murray:

and then excited to try to explore of just what is

Andy Murray:

happening that's allowing this to, to emerge so quickly.

Molly Rapert:

And I'll add to that, that, if we look at the

Molly Rapert:

broader context of what's happened over the course of our

Molly Rapert:

collective careers, it's considered the third wave. And I

Molly Rapert:

think Andrew Lispsman with insider intelligence really put

Molly Rapert:

it well, when he said that first wave took 14 years to get from 1

Molly Rapert:

billion to $30 billion when we're looking at search, and we

Molly Rapert:

go to the second wave of social, that took 11 years to go from 1

Molly Rapert:

billion to 30 billion. They've made this move in five years to

Molly Rapert:

get to that. So the traction, the velocity, the way it's

Molly Rapert:

entrenched, along with everything else, Andy said, is

Molly Rapert:

really what's keeping it on our horizon.

Rod Thomas:

The other reason I'll say it's a big deal, it

Rod Thomas:

gives you that rare triple win for consumers, if retail media

Rod Thomas:

is operating properly, I'm not getting ads for women's coats,

Rod Thomas:

right? I'm not getting ads for things that are not appropriate

Rod Thomas:

for my age or my tastes, it is a customized solution for me, it

Rod Thomas:

doesn't waste my time. For suppliers, for the brands, it

Rod Thomas:

gives them an opportunity to market their goods and products

Rod Thomas:

and services in a way that is so targeted and so bogus, it should

Rod Thomas:

increase their sales volume. For the retailers, it's an

Rod Thomas:

incremental revenue stream. And the key is it's not always a big

Rod Thomas:

dollars like Andy said, it is higher margin, much higher, the

Rod Thomas:

margins on retail media are much higher than product sales. And

Rod Thomas:

that's why you're seeing retailers so aggressively

Rod Thomas:

pursuing this right at spotting a lot of the omni channel, omni

Rod Thomas:

channel's expensive from a supply chain perspective, home

Rod Thomas:

delivery is really expensive from a supply chain perspective,

Rod Thomas:

retail media offsets the lower margins with that supplemental

Rod Thomas:

margin.

Andy Murray:

And I think the other thing that's important why

Andy Murray:

we wanted to study this is that this is not getting born like a

Andy Murray:

TikTok or a Meta, where, you know, it's a media organization

Andy Murray:

dealing with a new channel that's emerging, even those are

Andy Murray:

huge channels. This is this is being born inside of an existing

Andy Murray:

commercial relationship, that just up ends everything in terms

Andy Murray:

of now the retailer is also a seller, you know, and the client

Andy Murray:

and who's the client who's the buyer roles have shifted, and

Andy Murray:

you put that kind of organizational change into a

Andy Murray:

pretty established ecosystem with the way things work, it can

Andy Murray:

cause quite a bit of disruption inside the organizational

Andy Murray:

frameworks.

Brent Williams:

We organize our research around the promise and,

Brent Williams:

you know, gaps to the promise and ways to move forward. And I

Brent Williams:

want to get there in just a moment. But but maybe, maybe

Brent Williams:

we'll back out for just a second and just talk about this

Brent Williams:

research process and maybe why we did this right, you know, so

Brent Williams:

this is absolutely an emerging phenomenon. And we decided as a

Brent Williams:

group that this needed an academic look, but it also

Brent Williams:

needed it pretty quickly. Right? You know, we didn't feel like we

Brent Williams:

had a lot of time to get the thought out into market and you

Brent Williams:

think about the Walton College, when I think about our vision,

Brent Williams:

you know, I really just break it down into two core components.

Brent Williams:

One is transforming lives, we tend to think about that, of

Brent Williams:

course, as our students every day, when they're on our campus

Brent Williams:

and, and throughout the other aspects of their lives with the

Brent Williams:

but, thought leadership is also a core component of who we are.

Brent Williams:

And this was a real opportunity it seemed to provide thought

Brent Williams:

leadership in an area that was emerging. And we did that

Brent Williams:

through qualitative research methods. And Rod you are, you

Brent Williams:

know, the expert on our team, at least in these methods. So talk

Brent Williams:

a little bit about how we went about this research.

Rod Thomas:

We went into our laboratory, a chemist goes into

Rod Thomas:

a lab and starts mixing chemicals. Our lab is industry

Rod Thomas:

professionals, and their corporate settings and what

Rod Thomas:

they're doing. And it's really, it's, it's awesome to be

Rod Thomas:

involved with a brand new industry, cutting edge industry.

Rod Thomas:

And we're on the forefront of that, where we got to talk to

Rod Thomas:

dozens of industry leading experts, and get their insights

Rod Thomas:

on this. So qualitative research in general, is we go talk to

Rod Thomas:

people not structured, right, we will have an interview guide and

Rod Thomas:

some standard questions, but we want to take it wherever it

Rod Thomas:

wants to go. Where, whatever they need to talk about. And

Rod Thomas:

then we come back, we go through, we call it coding. But

Rod Thomas:

essentially, we look for patterns. We look for common

Rod Thomas:

themes and what they're telling us. And we try to identify

Rod Thomas:

those, and then try to look at how those things link together.

Rod Thomas:

And overall, what we're trying to do is describe it, a new

Rod Thomas:

phenomenon would be the academic term for it. But for industry,

Rod Thomas:

let's get our arms around what the heck are we talking about

Rod Thomas:

retail media, right? Just defining that is difficult,

Rod Thomas:

describing what's involved with that, and that we went to the

Rod Thomas:

next stage of okay, how are we gonna get better. And we're

Rod Thomas:

pinging all kinds of people from different backgrounds. It wasn't

Rod Thomas:

just suppliers. It wasn't just retailers, it wasn't just third

Rod Thomas:

party providers. It was all those things in those different

Rod Thomas:

perspectives, from big companies, small companies,

Rod Thomas:

whatnot. And when you talk to enough people, you start to get

Rod Thomas:

redundancy. And that's kind of where we said, okay, we got

Rod Thomas:

enough to publish. Let's get those insights out there for

Rod Thomas:

everybody to learn from. But a big part of what we're doing

Rod Thomas:

upfront, is describing it, defining it and differentiating

Rod Thomas:

it. How can how can these retail media networks be most

Rod Thomas:

successful? How can they differentiate themselves from

Rod Thomas:

the competition, because although there's over 600 of

Rod Thomas:

these right now, they're not all going to survive, right? We're

Rod Thomas:

hearing more and more from our suppliers, there's gonna be

Rod Thomas:

we're gonna count on our hands, how many of these are really

Rod Thomas:

gonna thrive five years from now.

Andy Murray:

I think from an academic side of this, that was

Andy Murray:

a new process for me, Brent. And I probably struggle the most

Andy Murray:

coming from industry, because I'm like, well, I got all these

Andy Murray:

specific questions I'd love to ask and Rod and Molly,

Andy Murray:

especially last year, the first time through, we're like, no,

Andy Murray:

that's not how we do it. We can't go that route. Yeah, but I

Andy Murray:

really want to know about this, or that. And it's like, you

Andy Murray:

can't do that, you know, that's not the academic approach and

Andy Murray:

letting this breathe and letting the insights unfold from, from

Andy Murray:

some very macro questions that had no leading biases in them.

Andy Murray:

It was just completely, you know, macro, I thought were that

Andy Murray:

we're not going to get much out of this. Let's get to the

Andy Murray:

specifics. And I was totally wrong, I mean, it really was

Andy Murray:

fresh to see that. And I see a lot of industry research

Andy Murray:

published. But the value of this coming from an academic model

Andy Murray:

approach really makes it a bit different. And it was something

Andy Murray:

that I had to learn how to adapt to. And now I totally appreciate

Brent Williams:

Yeah, I mean, it was so much fun to have you. And

Brent Williams:

the value.

Brent Williams:

I might call you a quasi academic now on the team, and so

Brent Williams:

Molly, from your standpoint, you know, you've worked on many

Brent Williams:

academic research teams you've worked with, with, with industry

Brent Williams:

professionals, your whole career, but we got a chance to

Brent Williams:

kind of blend that on this team.

Molly Rapert:

Right. And I think that that is, to be honest, the

Molly Rapert:

beauty of Walton, it's what attracted me here in the first

Molly Rapert:

place. And I think that this is a great example of it, but it's

Molly Rapert:

certainly not the only example. I think it pervades everything

Molly Rapert:

we do from having the Customer Centric Leadership Initiative,

Molly Rapert:

to business integrity centers to, I have an advisory board for

Molly Rapert:

my class that picks the articles that my students read. I run the

Molly Rapert:

retail advisory board, that is industry executives from around

Molly Rapert:

the world. I think this is who Walton is, it's this is a

Molly Rapert:

natural extension of that. And so then to be put in a setting,

Molly Rapert:

that is part of our daily responsibility of doing

Molly Rapert:

research, but carrying that same philosophy into that setting.

Molly Rapert:

It's my favorite research hands down, where we're looking at

Molly Rapert:

exactly what is happening in industry, putting our frameworks

Molly Rapert:

and our understanding with that. And I don't think it gets any

Molly Rapert:

better than that in academia. But I also don't think it gets

Molly Rapert:

better than how Walton is positioned to bring these

Molly Rapert:

entities together in the proximity that we can.

Brent Williams:

You know, Molly, I completely agree, I tend to

Brent Williams:

say that this industry engagement that the Walton

Brent Williams:

College has the ability to do and is fortunate enough to have

Brent Williams:

is our superpower of maybe for a lack of better way of saying it.

Brent Williams:

And, you know, in this community, and in this state, I

Brent Williams:

feel like it's, it's not only that industry is here, it's that

Brent Williams:

they want to engage. And so they want to engage with students,

Brent Williams:

our students want to engage with them, our faculty want to engage

Brent Williams:

with them, industry wants to engage in thought leadership.

Brent Williams:

It's just a really unique thing about the Walton College of

Brent Williams:

Business, Northwest Arkansas and Arkansas more broadly.

Molly Rapert:

I think it's more unique than maybe the audience

Molly Rapert:

would even realize, because it's so common sense. I mean, why

Molly Rapert:

wouldn't you have academics working with people in industry,

Molly Rapert:

but the reality is, it doesn't happen, and certainly doesn't

Molly Rapert:

happen to the extent that it happens at this table and in our

Rod Thomas:

I think it was I told you so, Andy.

Andy Murray:

I'd like to also add, I think the diversity of

Andy Murray:

college.

Andy Murray:

I think so too but then you said, you know, retail

Andy Murray:

the research team was really important and didn't probably

Andy Murray:

media is a supply chain problem. And I had never thought of it

Andy Murray:

manifest itself until this round we had where, you know, what's

Andy Murray:

the supply chain logistics guy going to be added to a very

Andy Murray:

complicated retail media, technical thing. But then as we

Andy Murray:

got into it, and started asking questions, one of the executives

Andy Murray:

we interviewed said, they only hire into retail media network

Andy Murray:

roles, supply chain logistics grads. And that's the point, I

Andy Murray:

thought Rod was gonna, like, just come out of his chair in excitement,

Andy Murray:

that way before. But you know, Rod saw it right away. And I

Andy Murray:

think you've been saying it's a supply chain problem for the

Andy Murray:

last couple of years. But I don't think that would have come

Andy Murray:

up without that academic diversity that tried to bring

Andy Murray:

this team together to explore this problem.

Brent Williams:

We got to tell the audience a little story here

Brent Williams:

about trust, I think. This is under the cover, look at their

Brent Williams:

research team. Andy or Rod. Let me start with Andy.

Andy Murray:

Yeah.

Brent Williams:

What did you learn about trust?

Andy Murray:

Well, this is such an interesting story. I can't

Andy Murray:

believe you're asking me this. But the first round through as

Andy Murray:

we're doing the coding, we started talking through themes.

Andy Murray:

And and I can't remember if it was Molly or Stephanie, or I

Andy Murray:

don't think it was Rod, it might of been Rod, said, you know,

Andy Murray:

what we're dealing with here is a theme around trust. And I like

Andy Murray:

trust, I don't hear that word in the professional circles I run

Andy Murray:

in and these other things that sounds soft, that sounds

Andy Murray:

ambiguous. And, you know, we can't put that in the research.

Andy Murray:

And I couldn't have been more wrong as I started, explore

Andy Murray:

that. And we had some pretty heated conversations around

Andy Murray:

trust. And it does it really manifest as a construct. And

Andy Murray:

over time, as we kept working through it, and then I got my

Andy Murray:

hands on Stephen Covey's book, The Speed of Trust, and it broke

Andy Murray:

down all the things that we were talking about in just different

Andy Murray:

language. And so it was quite an epiphany, and what did we have

Andy Murray:

some vigorous conversation on that. And I'll be in first say I

Andy Murray:

was wrong.

Brent Williams:

Well, I will say, that's probably the only

Molly Rapert:

And my memory is, I think, I honestly don't

Molly Rapert:

place that you were potentially wrong during this. But it was

Molly Rapert:

remember if it was Stephanie or myself that just flippantly said

Molly Rapert:

really just such a fun part of this story that we picked at

Molly Rapert:

each other at throughout it, but no, but it was this, you know,

Molly Rapert:

this blend of someone really rooted in practice with with,

Molly Rapert:

with researchers that are really rooted in academics that like

Molly Rapert:

being able to work through those issues really made this word

Molly Rapert:

much more meaningful.

Molly Rapert:

it, but it was Rod that went and pulled the trust literature, I

Molly Rapert:

remember this and started bringing out the dimensionality

Molly Rapert:

of it and showing up with an academic article on it or

Molly Rapert:

saying, I really think you need to think about this. And then

Molly Rapert:

next thing I know, I'm seeing Andy on LinkedIn talking about a

Molly Rapert:

trust tax. This is the beauty of it.

Rod Thomas:

I'm filing copyright infringement. The power of

Rod Thomas:

qualitative research is it is interpretive. And we do need to

Rod Thomas:

have those conversations we need to make sure those themes that

Rod Thomas:

we're talking about are really there and need to go back to

Rod Thomas:

some of them later on. We were asking some of our people we

Rod Thomas:

were interviewing are the trust issues, absolutely it came up,

Rod Thomas:

right? We didn't beg the question. You didn't start out

Rod Thomas:

with, we're going to make this about trust. So going back to

Rod Thomas:

when you were talking about academic research, we're

Rod Thomas:

supposed to be unbiased, we're supposed to be neutral. We are

Rod Thomas:

scientists, we don't go into it with an agenda, like a business

Rod Thomas:

person, or even a journalist would. And that's powerful. And

Rod Thomas:

the trust vetting came up, nobody explicitly set it up

Rod Thomas:

front. But that's okay. Right, they were to show that they're

Rod Thomas:

talking all around it. There was a lot of mistrust up front,

Rod Thomas:

because it was unknown. People didn't know what retail media

Rod Thomas:

was. A lot of these suppliers were just like, where's this

Rod Thomas:

going to end? How much is it going to cost me? How is this

Rod Thomas:

going to impact my business? They were fearful. And then

Rod Thomas:

there was this element of is my investment gonna pay off and all

Rod Thomas:

that so there was the credibility dimension of trust,

Rod Thomas:

there's also this benevolence, dimension of trust of, are they

Rod Thomas:

just using this as another way to tax me or generate money. So

Rod Thomas:

they were talking all around it. And we finally got them on

Rod Thomas:

board. And people started explicitly saying, as well, and

Rod Thomas:

then we could dive into it very directly. But it was fun. It

Rod Thomas:

took me back to my industry roots as well. And Andy, and I

Rod Thomas:

look at each other hard time. So it was a great context to do

Rod Thomas:

that.

Andy Murray:

And I think I got stuck on the benevolence side of

Andy Murray:

trust, and not really understanding lack of

Andy Murray:

capability, as everything was new is a trust issue, because

Andy Murray:

you don't you can't trust it, this decision is going to work.

Andy Murray:

Right. And I'd never really looked at it that way. So thank

Andy Murray:

you, Rob, for disabusing me.

Brent Williams:

Rod, let me ask you this question. Oftentimes,

Brent Williams:

research gets said it's either industry focused, kind of white

Brent Williams:

paper research, or it's academic. It's truly possible

Brent Williams:

for research to to be disseminated both ways and so

Brent Williams:

how do you do it?

Rod Thomas:

It's not easy. It's difficult to do. But I think

Rod Thomas:

we've done it here. Because it is such a new industry. Because

Rod Thomas:

it's such a new phenomenon. We can go to the academic

Rod Thomas:

literature and go, hey, industry's doing this, we need

Rod Thomas:

to get out in front of this, let's define it, describe it,

Rod Thomas:

talk about the theoretical implications where we understand

Rod Thomas:

what's going on, we can predict what's going on. And on the

Rod Thomas:

industry people love it to be because we're giving those

Rod Thomas:

participants in our interviews a voice, we're able to say things

Rod Thomas:

in a neutral manner, that they probably couldn't say to their

Rod Thomas:

retail partners. Or we can say in a neutral way where everybody

Rod Thomas:

knows it's coming from an unbiased place. If I'm a

Rod Thomas:

supplier, if I make a comment to my buyer, there's usually an

Rod Thomas:

agenda behind that, right. And vice versa, there's usually

Rod Thomas:

something behind that we're unbiased, we're neutral, we are

Rod Thomas:

all about providing trustworthy information we'll bring trust

Rod Thomas:

back in. And so I think you can do both, it is difficult. But

Rod Thomas:

we've shown we have white papers out there now, you and I did a

Rod Thomas:

supply chain variant in more of a practitioner oriented journal.

Rod Thomas:

And now we're working with one of the leading academic journals

Rod Thomas:

on describing, defining, and differentiating this. So to me,

Rod Thomas:

this is the holy grail. But it's difficult.

Brent Williams:

Yeah. Well, I'll come back to now the work

Brent Williams:

itself. As I said, we we sort of started with the promise and as

Brent Williams:

we've gone through a couple of iterations, so and I should

Brent Williams:

remind, you know, those listening, you know, we did a

Brent Williams:

round of interviews over a year ago. More recently, we've done a

Brent Williams:

second round of interviews, and really looking at what to had

Brent Williams:

changed, you know, but but I'm gonna ask you all to help me

Brent Williams:

blend those things together, you know. So, Molly, I'm gonna start

Brent Williams:

with you. Just we've talked a little bit, we almost kind of

Brent Williams:

got into the promise of retail media networks, but not quite.

Brent Williams:

So as you've listened over the last, let's call it 18 months

Brent Williams:

working on this, what as you think about? What is the

Brent Williams:

promise? And how is it evolved?

Molly Rapert:

So I loved working on this part, I think we

Molly Rapert:

actually each ended up getting to work on our favorite part.

Molly Rapert:

But this was it for me. To look at the possibilities that exist

Molly Rapert:

as companies are investing in this more and more, and it's

Molly Rapert:

becoming a stronger part of the ecosystem. So we really looked

Molly Rapert:

at it from a triadic point of view, what's the promise for the

Molly Rapert:

consumers, for the brands and for the retailers, so I'm going

Molly Rapert:

to hang it in that framework to have some consistency with our

Molly Rapert:

first white paper. So I think there's an colloquial phrase

Molly Rapert:

that comes from Thailand it says same same but different. And

Molly Rapert:

that is just what kept resonating with me after every

Molly Rapert:

interview, we had this second round, there were things that I

Molly Rapert:

would write down and say well that was the same, that was the

Molly Rapert:

same, but boy, that's changed that's different over the last

Molly Rapert:

year. So I'll give you an example coming out of consumers,

Molly Rapert:

a consumer remained at the forefront, the consumer, the

Molly Rapert:

promise for the consumer was that they would receive this

Molly Rapert:

personalized, relevant, timely message that helped them as they

Molly Rapert:

were in their journey that remained the same. But what was

Molly Rapert:

completely different was the specificity of the promise with

Molly Rapert:

round two. And you know, it, we did not do quantitative

Molly Rapert:

research. So we haven't really explored what caused that

Molly Rapert:

specificity to emerge, I would guess it's that companies are

Molly Rapert:

investing so much money, that that means in turn, they're

Molly Rapert:

expecting more out of the promise but whatever the cause

Molly Rapert:

that specificity did emerge there so that it no longer

Molly Rapert:

became about Rodney, getting a personalized, relevant message.

Molly Rapert:

But the promise that was articulated to us in 2023, was

Molly Rapert:

they expected Rod to get an email prompting him based on

Molly Rapert:

what is relevant to him first thing in the morning, and that

Molly Rapert:

email, and that messaging, whether it's social media or

Molly Rapert:

other platforms would constantly adjust throughout the day,

Molly Rapert:

iterate based on data that's close loop and going back to

Molly Rapert:

adjust what he's receiving. And that it's not only taking place,

Molly Rapert:

this was a big difference not only taking place in the digital

Molly Rapert:

space, but tying into the physical store. A great quote

Molly Rapert:

from a an individual he said I want our amends to influence

Molly Rapert:

physical merchandising as wel so that my shopper is reached no

Molly Rapert:

matter where they are, what they're doing in store online,

Molly Rapert:

in between, and actually referred to it as a tightly

Molly Rapert:

integrated, curated set, a seamless fabric of Rod's life,

Molly Rapert:

that was a different narrative than what we heard last year,

Molly Rapert:

which was personalized, relevant, timely. So the same,

Molly Rapert:

but different.

Rod Thomas:

Much more nuanced.

Molly Rapert:

Much more nuanced.

Rod Thomas:

Much more informed, much more sophisticated. The

Rod Thomas:

suppliers went from a year and a half ago of the fear of the

Rod Thomas:

unknown to, okay, we're getting our arms around this now, we're

Rod Thomas:

going to drive this, this is what we want, this is what we

Rod Thomas:

need, this is what we expect. And if you're going to be a

Rod Thomas:

media network, we're gonna treat you like a media network. And we

Rod Thomas:

expect things that we would get from traditional media, right?

Rod Thomas:

ROI, an understanding of what our investment represents, what

Rod Thomas:

services are you going to provide? One of the most unique

Rod Thomas:

things that came out of our research is the buyer supplier

Rod Thomas:

relationship inverts here. Typically, the retailer is

Rod Thomas:

buying something from a supplier. With retail media,

Rod Thomas:

it's just the opposite. The suppliers are buying media

Rod Thomas:

services from the retailer. And those relational dynamics

Rod Thomas:

flipping like that the power dependence relationship

Rod Thomas:

fundamentally changes. And that presents some challenges, right?

Rod Thomas:

You go from one meeting where you're kind of in the driver's

Rod Thomas:

seat and saying, I want this to go down the hallway, somebody

Rod Thomas:

said, and now it's my turn. Right.

Brent Williams:

You know, Andy, I felt like you have your head

Brent Williams:

really around how we see this, you know, you said same, same

Brent Williams:

but different, right? I'm gonna kind of go to the different

Brent Williams:

because because there are some points where I think we also we

Brent Williams:

heard, you know, a year ago, 18 months ago, people were really

Brent Williams:

just kind of getting their head around this, what is this

Brent Williams:

phenomenon? You know, how are we going to approach this? We feel

Brent Williams:

like in some areas, the gaps have closed over the last year

Brent Williams:

or so. In some areas they haven't. What are some places

Brent Williams:

where you really see some substantial change?

Andy Murray:

Yeah, Brent I think there's three things that are

Andy Murray:

different from last year that are a bit of closing the gap

Andy Murray:

that we heard and the first is around conversations. The second

Andy Murray:

is around clarity. And the third is around competence. And if you

Andy Murray:

look at the point of conversation we heard quite a

Andy Murray:

bit of we're having different conversations today than we had

Andy Murray:

a year ago between the suppliers and the retailers. And I think

Andy Murray:

that's important conversations around the importance of

Andy Murray:

incrementality or measurement and those conversations are more

Andy Murray:

transparent, which those conversations as wasn't

Andy Murray:

necessarily happening back a year ago. We weren't hearing

Andy Murray:

about those conversations. On clarity we saw a lot more

Andy Murray:

strategic clarity emerge over the last year. And what I mean

Andy Murray:

by that is the clarity around everyone that we talked to had

Andy Murray:

some form of an assessment process to be able to assess

Andy Murray:

capabilities. They all had a segmentation that allow them to

Andy Murray:

understand how they're going to interact with the different

Andy Murray:

retail media networks and that clarity was really important.

Andy Murray:

And they also had a better understanding of which brand

Andy Murray:

objectives are going to work better with retail media

Andy Murray:

networks, and then other brand objectives. And that's a lot of

Andy Murray:

strategic clarity. And there was probably a bit more clarity

Andy Murray:

around their macro game plan, I think a year ago was we don't

Andy Murray:

know what we don't know. Now, it felt like there was a lot more

Andy Murray:

clarity about what their roadmap needs to look like in terms of

Andy Murray:

the challenges to overcome or whatever the next conversation

Andy Murray:

really needs to be. On clarity, there was also an operational

Andy Murray:

clarity, more understanding around what tactics work better

Andy Murray:

than other tactics, what work processes need to get

Andy Murray:

reinvented. And a lot of the companies have been really

Andy Murray:

working on that. And then the last one is on confidence, I

Andy Murray:

think we saw a lot of confidence in the language and in the, in

Andy Murray:

the approach that we didn't see before, in the competence coming

Andy Murray:

usually from upskilling, that every organization has done a

Andy Murray:

quite a bit of upskilling over the last year. And that has

Andy Murray:

resulted in a competence in terms of how they approach the

Andy Murray:

the retailer supplier relationship, or how they

Andy Murray:

approach the changes they need at the organization. So

Andy Murray:

confidence was really markedly different. But it wasn't

Andy Murray:

systemic, it had a lot to do with who was who took what

Andy Murray:

individual role, and took it upon themselves to provide that

Andy Murray:

leadership. And a big company might have very different

Andy Murray:

outcomes. If the, if the key actors working together weren't

Andy Murray:

really on the same page and didn't didn't really align, then

Andy Murray:

then the outcomes when the individuals themselves just

Andy Murray:

leaned in and you can you could feel the leadership coming from

Andy Murray:

them, their outcomes could be completely different. So it

Andy Murray:

wasn't systemic, it was very individual. Is that what you

Andy Murray:

guys thought?

Molly Rapert:

And I would add in, it, it was very difficult to

Molly Rapert:

separate our areas, because the promise was the same but had

Molly Rapert:

changed. And then trying to identify whether that change was

Molly Rapert:

truly in the promise or in the reality and that which is what

Molly Rapert:

Andy just discussed. But I think they really went hand in hand

Molly Rapert:

that as these changes were made in the reality, as people became

Molly Rapert:

more aware, especially of bifurcation between early

Molly Rapert:

entrance and later entrance, I think the narrative of the

Molly Rapert:

promise changed, as well. And we are hearing almost two tracks

Molly Rapert:

laid down the track that we heard last year, very general

Molly Rapert:

conceptual in nature, and then the track this year, which was

Molly Rapert:

especially for the early entrance into it much more

Molly Rapert:

specific, much more strategic. So the promise became almost an

Molly Rapert:

elevated set of expectations that they needed to happen in

Molly Rapert:

order to be satisfied. And like, one of the quotes and I'm sorry,

Molly Rapert:

I know, I love leaning into the words of others, but one person

Molly Rapert:

said, The only value proposition that retail media networks have

Molly Rapert:

is measurement. So within a week, I should be able to run a

Molly Rapert:

number of tests and be so far ahead of where I would have been

Molly Rapert:

a month or a few months ago. And that is the implied promise. And

Molly Rapert:

they're saying that were last year, they would say the promise

Molly Rapert:

is measurement closely purporting.

Brent Williams:

Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense. You know,

Brent Williams:

this is what this level of specificity really is what makes

Brent Williams:

this phenomenon really, really exciting. You know, Rod,

Brent Williams:

something that don't we should have talked about a little bit

Brent Williams:

earlier is a sample, you know, how do you put a sample

Brent Williams:

together? Because, you know, we talk to a pretty wide variety of

Brent Williams:

people intentionally that had lots of experience. And so, you

Brent Williams:

know, there's many different brands represented and different

Brent Williams:

retailers, different regions of the world. And so this was

Brent Williams:

pretty a pretty broad look, that we're taking right?

Rod Thomas:

Yep. Yeah. It's not Sam's quantitative sampling,

Rod Thomas:

where your sample sizes thousands or millions of people.

Rod Thomas:

But even with qualitative research, you want to get a

Rod Thomas:

broad representation. We want different levels of an

Rod Thomas:

organization, we want different members of the retail ecosystem.

Rod Thomas:

And it's important to have that because we didn't want this to

Rod Thomas:

be just about one retailer. We're just about one CPG

Rod Thomas:

company. We want it to be generalizable enough that it'll,

Rod Thomas:

it'll impact or those insights could potentially impact

Rod Thomas:

everybody. Right? And qualitative research is not

Rod Thomas:

going to be as generalizable as when you're crunching big

Rod Thomas:

datasets with econometric models. But I think our sample

Rod Thomas:

because we did have different regions of the world and

Rod Thomas:

different players really did give some insight that could

Rod Thomas:

help a wide range of people. So qualitative sampling, you start

Rod Thomas:

out with, the first criteria is it has to be somebody willing

Rod Thomas:

and able to talk about what you're interested in talking

Rod Thomas:

about. So we couldn't have people that weren't playing in

Rod Thomas:

this area. So they had to be experts, or at least have work

Rod Thomas:

experiences in there. And from there, you kind of try to

Rod Thomas:

provisionally test what some of the themes are. So we might

Rod Thomas:

start out with a handful of people from contacts that Andy

Rod Thomas:

knew, let's be honest, that's what it was, it was contacts

Rod Thomas:

Andy knew. From there, though, we started to see things and we

Rod Thomas:

said, huh, I wonder if this is just a US base, then what's with

Rod Thomas:

all these people in Europe or Asia? Hmm, I wonder if this is

Rod Thomas:

just a supplier thing, let's go talk to some providers or some

Rod Thomas:

retailers. And we were truly trying to push the boundaries of

Rod Thomas:

what we were seeing. So with qualitative research, some of

Rod Thomas:

the sampling you do is a provisional test of what you're

Rod Thomas:

starting to find and themes from the data.

Brent Williams:

Well, and, kind of going now I guess back to the

Brent Williams:

final stage of the paper itself, the way forward? What are some

Brent Williams:

key thoughts? Not only did we describe, which we did a lot, we

Brent Williams:

did a big focus on describing. But there's also some insights

Brent Williams:

about the way forward.

Rod Thomas:

was a big area. Right? And to Molly's point in

Rod Thomas:

the past, we just said we need better measures. Now it's very

Rod Thomas:

clear. No, no, no, we need log level data. We need to know what

Rod Thomas:

time Mary Sue logged on, how long they looked at the ad, what

Rod Thomas:

ad they saw, did they purchase online that evening? Or did they

Rod Thomas:

come back into the store the next day? It's a much more micro

Rod Thomas:

targeted measure, under measurement as a part of that,

Rod Thomas:

too, was make it verifiable, right, because back to the trust

Rod Thomas:

issue, right? Don't just tell us with summary recording retail

Rod Thomas:

media is great. No, no, no, let's, let's see what's going in

Rod Thomas:

behind this reporting. It was the raw data was what we were

Rod Thomas:

hearing from a lot of the bigger suppliers, alignment continues

Rod Thomas:

to be a big issue, both both sides of the relationship. So

Rod Thomas:

for a retailer, it was hey, if we're going to, if we're going

Rod Thomas:

to invest in retail media, let's make sure our merchants, our

Rod Thomas:

store ops, and our retail media is all on board. So we can get

Rod Thomas:

synergies of the phenomenon saw on retail media, and then

Rod Thomas:

reinforce that and still work. Reinforce that with something

Rod Thomas:

the merchants are doing. For the suppliers. You know, there's

Rod Thomas:

this big distinction between upper funnel and lower funnel

Rod Thomas:

levels. Retail media is agnostic to that. They don't care whether

Rod Thomas:

you're driving sales of existing customers or acquiring new

Rod Thomas:

customers, retail media helps. So those people need to blend

Rod Thomas:

those roles and be a little more aligned. The integration piece

Rod Thomas:

came up in terms of information and systems, retail media data,

Rod Thomas:

one of our big recommendations should be available to

Rod Thomas:

everybody, right? Internally and externally, there are a lot of

Rod Thomas:

key stakeholders that can benefit from having access to

Rod Thomas:

that information. So one of our recommendations is give them

Rod Thomas:

access to it. Even internally, it shouldn't be just a retail

Rod Thomas:

media manager type of information piece, the merchants

Rod Thomas:

needed it, store ops needed it, supply chain folks need it. So

Rod Thomas:

let's make that more widely accessible. On the last piece

Rod Thomas:

Andy touched on is the human capital. There's a different

Rod Thomas:

skill set here. It is a new industry. It is, it does combine

Rod Thomas:

cross functional areas. So there's a need for training on

Rod Thomas:

just kind of what retail media is and what the capabilities can

Rod Thomas:

be. As well as very specific pieces of art, very specific

Rod Thomas:

types of capabilities. Now, there's probably a need for more

Rod Thomas:

data scientists, or the marketing that there's probably

Rod Thomas:

a need for people that understand the whole spectrum of

Rod Thomas:

the funnel of marketing. So there's clearly a human capital

Rod Thomas:

investment in certain types of skill sets and cross training

Rod Thomas:

that's there. So those are really our four key points

Rod Thomas:

moving forward, recommendations to make retail media networks

Rod Thomas:

better.

Brent Williams:

Well, this human capital discussion gives me an

Brent Williams:

opportunity to pivot us back to the college and in the

Brent Williams:

classroom. So we talked about our vision of being a thought

Brent Williams:

leader. And then we also said, you know, a huge part of our

Brent Williams:

vision as a college is transforming lives. And so Molly

Brent Williams:

and Andy actually here, because you you actually partner. Here's

Brent Williams:

another beautiful part of this work. This makes it way back

Brent Williams:

into the classroom. How does it do that?

Molly Rapert:

It absolutely does and in a variety of ways. First

Molly Rapert:

and foremost for me to have somebody like Andy who's willing

Molly Rapert:

to invest his time, come into my classroom. Other people who were

Molly Rapert:

involved in my class who will be willing to speak on this

Molly Rapert:

subject. So the students are hearing about it before, they're

Molly Rapert:

I mean, there's definitely not a textbook written, can't even

Molly Rapert:

hardly find academic articles written on it yet. And so we

Molly Rapert:

have to hear from individuals who are boots on the ground

Molly Rapert:

doing this. I think also, this has given us ways to learn about

Molly Rapert:

what is being discussed at conferences, I don't think you

Molly Rapert:

can go to a conference right now in our field, where they're not

Molly Rapert:

talking about measurement, talking about retail media

Molly Rapert:

networks. Andy's great about bringing so much of that

Molly Rapert:

information back to us and posting on LinkedIn. But we also

Molly Rapert:

have collaborations with the IAB. And I'd like to think that

Molly Rapert:

a lot of that push of the IAB comes out of our recommendations

Molly Rapert:

from last year where we said, these individuals are clamoring

Molly Rapert:

for measurement. So when all of those relationships become

Molly Rapert:

almost institutionalized people that we can now call and talk

Molly Rapert:

to, we can bring that back into the classroom, and, and give our

Molly Rapert:

students a leg up on something that is not being discussed at

Molly Rapert:

other institutions, where we have marketing majors, but we're

Molly Rapert:

talking about it, I know I'm talking about it in my class,

Molly Rapert:

maybe even more than they want me to, but I talked about it all

Molly Rapert:

the time. And they're going to come out very literate in this

Molly Rapert:

area, and very well aware of another employment career path.

Andy Murray:

Yeah, and I think what we're seeing with retail

Andy Murray:

media networks, is that it's a leg of the stool, to a bigger

Andy Murray:

stool called Connected Commerce, really. And so if you look at

Andy Murray:

what's happening with social commerce, advertising,

Andy Murray:

marketing, there's going to be a time where we get to there's no

Andy Murray:

dead ends, where everything you see could actually turn into a

Andy Murray:

transaction or a purchase opportunity. And I think that

Andy Murray:

plays out for students in one of the things Molly does in the

Andy Murray:

marketing class, which I think is brilliant for the students is

Andy Murray:

take, take them on store walks, and prepare them for store

Andy Murray:

walks, and go on store walks to see the customer journey, with a

Andy Murray:

retailer, a buyer, with a supplier, and very few students

Andy Murray:

get that opportunity. But now they can go through that

Andy Murray:

opportunity with a connected commerce vision ahead of time,

Andy Murray:

and they can ask different questions because they, they

Andy Murray:

understand the importance of what's happening digitally

Andy Murray:

first, understand how that space might be searched before it's

Andy Murray:

actually shopped in store? And how do you look at that through

Andy Murray:

the eye, a fresh set of eyes, the connected commerce, for

Andy Murray:

students, and I think they're getting very practical and very

Andy Murray:

unique experiences that come from similar learnings from this

Andy Murray:

particular research.

Brent Williams:

Yeah, and these students that are that are

Brent Williams:

taking these classes, you know you mentioned, they have a leg

Brent Williams:

up, I believe that fully to be true. Because they understand

Brent Williams:

the context, they have a leg up in knowing the context that

Brent Williams:

they're about step into and contribute to. So you know, I

Brent Williams:

hear time and time again, where where our students, you know,

Brent Williams:

are ready, you know, whether it's an agency, a consumer

Brent Williams:

products company, or retailer, a company focused on supply chain

Brent Williams:

management, like they have the context, and they're ready to

Brent Williams:

contribute really.

Molly Rapert:

I think Rod is a great example of this, because

Molly Rapert:

he has been saying since day one, let's look at the supply

Molly Rapert:

chain implications of this, you know, so what if we give

Molly Rapert:

somebody a personalized, relevant message and get them to

Molly Rapert:

the shelf to reach for a product that oh, isn't there? You know,

Molly Rapert:

and so he's discussed this. And I know he's taken that back to

Molly Rapert:

the classroom too and his supply chain students are hearing about

Molly Rapert:

how they fit into this ecosystem. I guarantee that

Molly Rapert:

conversation's not taking place on other campuses, but he's been

Molly Rapert:

living and breathing this project. And then taking it back

Molly Rapert:

to his very fortunate students.

Rod Thomas:

I have, right and I teach a supply chain strategy

Rod Thomas:

course. And we talk about capabilities that we need to

Rod Thomas:

meet in consumer needs. That's why supply chains exist, to meet

Rod Thomas:

those needs. So my master's students have heard about it, my

Rod Thomas:

undergrads have heard about it and they get excited, and it's

Rod Thomas:

reinforced across the curriculum, when they're

Rod Thomas:

marketing as well. I think that ties back to what you're talking

Rod Thomas:

about earlier, the value of research. Our research should

Rod Thomas:

inform and drive our teaching. Right? And if if we're, if we're

Rod Thomas:

doing good research that's relevant to industry, by all

Rod Thomas:

means, let's bring it into the classroom. And if we're out in

Rod Thomas:

front of the industry on this, it really does set up our

Rod Thomas:

students.

Brent Williams:

Industry focused research that involves multiple

Brent Williams:

disciplines, academics and leaders from practice that's

Brent Williams:

impacting thought in industry, will impact the academic

Brent Williams:

literature and is impacting current students. Win win win

Brent Williams:

win?

Molly Rapert:

More than a trifecta.

Brent Williams:

Yeah, that's right. Well, Rod, Andy, Molly,

Brent Williams:

thank you for what you've been doing for the college for

Brent Williams:

pushing this research forward this knowledge forward. I really

Brent Williams:

enjoyed working with all three of you on this project.

Rod Thomas:

Ditto.

Andy Murray:

Thank you, Brent. Really enjoyed it.

Molly Rapert:

Absolutely.

Brent Williams:

On behalf of the Walton College. Thank you for

Brent Williams:

joining us for this captivating conversation. To stay connected

Brent Williams:

and never miss an episode. Simply search for Be Epic on

Brent Williams:

your preferred podcast service.

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About the Podcast

Be EPIC Podcast
Welcome to the Be Epic Podcast featuring Brent Williams, interim dean of the Sam M. Walton College of Business at the University of Arkansas. In each episode, you will hear from guests that will inspire you to be epic. As experts in their field, they will emphasize strategy, leadership, and entrepreneurship. This programming will highlight innovation and cutting-edge information that will leave you wanting more. Be sure to connect with Brent Williams on LinkedIn to join the conversation, access show notes and discover fantastic bonus content.