Episode 235

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Published on:

12th Jul 2023

Looking Beyond Traditional Assets with Josh Pack

This week on the podcast Matt sits down with Josh Pack, co-CEO of Fortress, a global asset management firm. They discuss how Fortress invests in an unconventional way in debts and assets by lending against intellectual property, patents, trademarks, legal claims and more to generate high returns. Josh shares his unlikely career path to joining Fortress, the people-focused culture that encourages input from all levels, along with Fortress' investments in supply chains and logistics. Gain insight into the world of alternative investing and how Fortress finds value where traditional investors cannot.

Transcript
Josh Pack:

Yeah, it's kind of like an athlete. You know, like,

Josh Pack:

I can't dunk a basketball, you know, but I can, I can break

Josh Pack:

down a company and I can look at it and I can figure out what

Josh Pack:

it's probably worth and how much you can lend against it or what

Josh Pack:

it might be worth in a fire sale.

Matt Waller:

Excellence, professionalism, innovation, and

Matt Waller:

collegiality. These are the values the Sam M. Walton College

Matt Waller:

of Business explores in education, business and the

Matt Waller:

lives of people we meet every day, I'm Matt Waller, Dean of

Matt Waller:

the Walton College, and welcome to the be epic podcast. I have

Matt Waller:

with me today, Joshua Pack, who is co-chief executive officer,

Matt Waller:

and managing partner at Fortress. Joshua, thank you so

Matt Waller:

much for joining me today, I really appreciate it.

Josh Pack:

Thanks for having me. I'm glad to be here.

Matt Waller:

So, Joshua, if you wouldn't mind, let's start with

Matt Waller:

just a little bit of background on Fortress, and maybe the three

Matt Waller:

different business segments and how much assets are under

Matt Waller:

management and the strategies of those segments.

Josh Pack:

So Fortress is a global asset management firm.

Josh Pack:

And, you know, we primarily focus on kind of debt and

Josh Pack:

assets. So we're not like a long only, you know, equity hedge

Josh Pack:

fund or somebody that trades in commodities, or someone that,

Josh Pack:

you know, trades with other types of equity, you know, type

Josh Pack:

assets. At the end of the day, what we're focused on is, is

Josh Pack:

debt, and, and assets. And when we say assets, it could be a

Josh Pack:

very kind of broad spectrum of different things, it could, it

Josh Pack:

could be a piece of real estate, or it could be a non traditional

Josh Pack:

type of asset, like a piece of intellectual property, or a

Josh Pack:

receivable, that's due from some sort of tort case, a law case, a

Josh Pack:

litigation asset. So it's a very kind of broad spectrum when we

Josh Pack:

talk about assets. But on the credit side, you know, we we do

Josh Pack:

everything from making new loans to companies, and these

Josh Pack:

companies may not have access to capital, because of their size,

Josh Pack:

or because of their geography or because of where they are in

Josh Pack:

their lifecycle either growing really, really fast, or maybe

Josh Pack:

they're in some sort of turmoil and shrinking. And so

Josh Pack:

traditional capital providers aren't necessarily available to

Josh Pack:

them. And then we also buy other pieces of debt on a secondary

Josh Pack:

basis, either performing or non performing loans. And in some

Josh Pack:

cases, we get, you know, we put on our distressed debt hats, and

Josh Pack:

become very opportunistic in that regard as well. But the

Josh Pack:

firm itself was, was founded in in 1997, originally, it was a

Josh Pack:

private equity firm, that did kind of buyouts and things of

Josh Pack:

that nature. And then in 2002, Peter Briger, who was a partner

Josh Pack:

at Goldman Sachs, left after the Goldman IPO. And Peter basically

Josh Pack:

started Goldman's special situation business, special

Josh Pack:

situation group, which was a highly profitable business

Josh Pack:

within Goldman for many, many years. When he left, he

Josh Pack:

reconnected with some of his colleagues and started the

Josh Pack:

credit arm of Fortress. And now when you look at Fortress, you

Josh Pack:

know, we manage almost 50 billion in total, AUM, and the

Josh Pack:

vast majority of that is now credit. So the credit business

Josh Pack:

has really kind of eclipsed the private equity business, we have

Josh Pack:

about 900 employees. We operate in 12 offices worldwide. Our

Josh Pack:

primary focus is North America, Western and Southern Europe,

Josh Pack:

Japan and Australia.

Matt Waller:

This is interesting. So you, you make

Matt Waller:

loans. Let's take an example of this. And so I could imagine,

Matt Waller:

you know, if you're a traditional business that has

Matt Waller:

real estate, like you own the lot, you own the building, you

Matt Waller:

can get a bank loan. But if you're, if you are, say, a

Matt Waller:

software as a service, you might be very profitable. But it's

Matt Waller:

hard to get a loan from a traditional bank, I believe, is

Matt Waller:

that right?

Josh Pack:

That's, that's true. And the loan sizes that we look

Josh Pack:

at is typically kind of 50 to 500 million. So we're dealing

Josh Pack:

with businesses that I would say are kind of in the upper part of

Josh Pack:

the middle market. You know, take for example, maybe it's a

Josh Pack:

it's a regional restaurant chain, you know, that that

Josh Pack:

operates 500 units and generates you know $100 million a year of

Josh Pack:

of EBIDTA on 1.5 billion of sales, you know, that company

Josh Pack:

might want a, you know, $400 million credit facility, either

Josh Pack:

refinancing debt, you know, funding capex projects, or maybe

Josh Pack:

the the sponsor, the ownership is taking a dividend or

Josh Pack:

distribution or something, or maybe they're acquiring another

Josh Pack:

business. You know, that's kind of a typical business that we

Josh Pack:

lend to, we're also very large players in in the software

Josh Pack:

space, healthcare companies, energy is becoming a much bigger

Josh Pack:

piece of our pie, particularly as other lenders in that space

Josh Pack:

kind of retract from it. Because of, you know, ESG policies,

Josh Pack:

mainly, I would say that, in the real estate part of the world,

Josh Pack:

that has historically been a place that we haven't done a ton

Josh Pack:

of lending, when the markets are very normalized. But when you

Josh Pack:

look at it today, and the markets are very disrupted,

Josh Pack:

we're getting much more active in that space.

Matt Waller:

When you mentioned intellectual property, I

Matt Waller:

immediately think of patents and copyrights, and trademarks.

Josh Pack:

We like all of those assets, we have businesses that

Josh Pack:

that will lend on those on those different properties. And we

Josh Pack:

have businesses that will, in effect buy those assets, and

Josh Pack:

sometimes you're really not allowed to buy the assets, but

Josh Pack:

you have to kind of buy the whole company in order to get to

Josh Pack:

the assets. So, so that's kind of another piece of our

Josh Pack:

business, but from IP, you know, when you think about trademarks,

Josh Pack:

and brands, those are assets that we definitely like lending

Josh Pack:

against, because there's typically, you know, pretty

Josh Pack:

robust cash flow streams associated with them. So there's

Josh Pack:

all kinds of licensing agreements, and, you know, take

Josh Pack:

like a franchise, if you will, or like, like Circle K gas

Josh Pack:

stations, you know, they that they have a brand, they have a

Josh Pack:

logo, and they license that out to 1000s of different operators

Josh Pack:

across the country. So you're getting a cash flow stream, it's

Josh Pack:

being paid by 5000 independent operators, that's contractually

Josh Pack:

increasing over time. So it's a very robust and kind of powerful

Josh Pack:

cash flow at the end of the day. And then you have things like,

Josh Pack:

intellectual property associated with patents. And, you know, if

Josh Pack:

you're, if you're a startup business, and you have some new

Josh Pack:

technology, and you have some great patent, and you've been

Josh Pack:

able to develop, or maybe you have a family of patents, you

Josh Pack:

know, accessing capital at that stage of growth is pretty

Josh Pack:

difficult. You know, there's the VC world, but that's come in a

Josh Pack:

lot, particularly recently. But what we're able to do is say,

Josh Pack:

okay, we think there's value to these patents, we'll move them

Josh Pack:

over into a special purpose entity, and we'll lend you money

Josh Pack:

against those patents, that you can go use to grow your

Josh Pack:

business. Now, if they're successful in growing their

Josh Pack:

business, great, they pay us off. And we've probably gotten

Josh Pack:

some warrants or some other equity, participation in their

Josh Pack:

operating business, but it's way, way cheaper than what you

Josh Pack:

know, the VC firm would have given them and experienced, much

Josh Pack:

less dilution.

Matt Waller:

I would think, too, there's a self selection that

Matt Waller:

goes on little bit there, right? Because firms that are most

Matt Waller:

confident, they don't want to give up equity.

Josh Pack:

Absolutely, absolutely. And they know they

Josh Pack:

have something valuable there. And then if the firm you know,

Josh Pack:

heaven forbid, fails, then we kind of have this structure

Josh Pack:

where we can just step in and kind of take over the patent.

Josh Pack:

So, you know, we'll just walk away without collateral, and

Josh Pack:

then we will figure out how to license that technology out. And

Josh Pack:

when we do our analysis and determining kind of what we can

Josh Pack:

lend against that. We do that, you know, kind of game theory

Josh Pack:

that goes into well, if we own this, you know, who is the

Josh Pack:

likely users of it? How big is that market, we might look at it

Josh Pack:

and say, you know, firm XY and Z might be infringing on that

Josh Pack:

patent and figure out an enforcement route against it. So

Josh Pack:

there's there's all kinds of different, you know, decision

Josh Pack:

trees that you can take along the way to come up with with

Josh Pack:

determining the value of that piece of collateral.

Matt Waller:

Well, this is I'm so glad that I'm talking to you

Matt Waller:

about this. This is a different type of investment vehicle than

Matt Waller:

I'm used to.

Josh Pack:

What we have, it's with fortress that we think

Josh Pack:

about our business kind of 50% of our business, I would say is

Josh Pack:

kind of standard, standard lending, standard private

Josh Pack:

credit, kind of standard, I'm stressed and distress credit

Josh Pack:

type activities. And then the other half of our business are

Josh Pack:

kind of these niche and esoteric type of strategies that we've

Josh Pack:

developed over the years. And typically we kind of grow them

Josh Pack:

up inside the firm, you know, add people over time. And the IP

Josh Pack:

business is a big one, you know, our trademark and intellectual

Josh Pack:

property associated with you know, film, and associated with

Josh Pack:

music is another one. We also have, I think, probably the

Josh Pack:

largest litigation assets business on the planet. And

Josh Pack:

that's kind of a growing field, there's, there's a couple of

Josh Pack:

public companies that that that do it one, one is out of the UK.

Josh Pack:

But really, I think, I think we're probably the largest. And,

Josh Pack:

you know, there's all kinds of ways to monetize large kind of

Josh Pack:

legal claims. At the end of the day, if you're, for example, if

Josh Pack:

you're a fortune 100 company, you might have a few billion

Josh Pack:

dollars of different kinds of litigation claims coming out at

Josh Pack:

any given moment in time, we can show up and actually,

Josh Pack:

potentially, you know, give you three or 400 million of

Josh Pack:

liquidity against that multibillion dollar pool after

Josh Pack:

we've analyzed all of the claims. And so for the first

Josh Pack:

time ever, the company can kind of accelerate, you know, the

Josh Pack:

cash flows that they get, and actually take that, take that

Josh Pack:

investment into earnings. So it's a powerful tool from a

Josh Pack:

treasury management perspective. And from our perspective, you

Josh Pack:

know, we're gonna lend a couple 100 million dollars, we're gonna

Josh Pack:

get a great pref return, you know, maybe it's 12, 15%. And

Josh Pack:

then we're going to participate in the ultimate resolution of

Josh Pack:

that entire multibillion dollar litigation portfolio. So these

Josh Pack:

end up being really, really great investments, because the,

Josh Pack:

the downside risk is so low, and the upside is pretty dang high.

Josh Pack:

We also do things where you have these really large law firms

Josh Pack:

that are involved in these massive tort cases, you know,

Josh Pack:

whether it's talcum powder, or Roundup, or or, you know,

Josh Pack:

Johnson and Johnson, or, you know, diesel emissions, and all

Josh Pack:

of these big cases are in various stages of their life,

Josh Pack:

you know, some have been settled already, and they're just being

Josh Pack:

signed off by the local, you know, states to come into

Josh Pack:

agreement. Some of them are in the earlier stages, and people

Josh Pack:

are actually just collecting plaintiffs. But if a law firm

Josh Pack:

has these huge pools, we can provide them with some capital

Josh Pack:

today. Think of it as almost like a factoring of a

Josh Pack:

receivable, you're making a determination of how good is

Josh Pack:

that receivable, ie, how good is that case, and then you come up

Josh Pack:

with an advance rate against that. For some law firms, you

Josh Pack:

know, we will provide them with, you know, a $50 million credit

Josh Pack:

facility, and it will be secured by hundreds of millions of

Josh Pack:

dollars of potential fee income that they're getting from these

Josh Pack:

large tort claims. And they'll take that $50 million and they

Josh Pack:

will use that to invest in acquiring new plaint-, new

Josh Pack:

plaintiffs. So for example, we are probably responsible for all

Josh Pack:

the commercials you see on TV for camp lejeune, you know,

Josh Pack:

because a lot of the law firms that we're involved with, are

Josh Pack:

collecting plaintiffs for the camp lejeune claims. And so

Josh Pack:

we've provided them with a credit facility in order for

Josh Pack:

them to go out and market that. But at the same time, they're

Josh Pack:

doing that piece of tort case, they also have these other large

Josh Pack:

cases going on that are way more further developed in their

Josh Pack:

lifecycle.

Matt Waller:

Fascinating. You've got the three different business

Matt Waller:

segments. Are they separate funds for each of them?

Josh Pack:

So we manage we manage almost three dozen

Josh Pack:

different funds, okay, that there's kind of, we always tried

Josh Pack:

to broadly categorize the different areas that we're

Josh Pack:

investing in, you know, some are easily defined. So like, if you

Josh Pack:

take private credit, you know, we we have this, this is where

Josh Pack:

we're making haar loans, we're making new loans to businesses

Josh Pack:

on a senior secured basis. Typically, you know, the first

Josh Pack:

person in line in a business to get paid back. And our last

Josh Pack:

dollar typically doesn't go through more than say, 50% of

Josh Pack:

the value of that company. And so today, you know, that's kind

Josh Pack:

of a 10, 11, maybe 12% unlevered yield that you're getting on

Josh Pack:

that type of investment, and then we'll put a little leverage

Josh Pack:

on it so that we can generate kind of a 15 16% gross return to

Josh Pack:

our investors. But what's nice about the private credit

Josh Pack:

business is that it's, it's senior in the capital structure.

Josh Pack:

So there's a lot of wiggle room in case something goes wrong

Josh Pack:

with the company, you're the first ones to get paid back. And

Josh Pack:

you have typically floating rate type of structures. So in an

Josh Pack:

environment like today, where you have rising rates, it's a

Josh Pack:

very attractive place to kind of hide out in order to earn a

Josh Pack:

great current yield. Other, you know, alternative asset

Josh Pack:

managers, private credit businesses have experienced a

Josh Pack:

lot of growth over the past five or six years, you know, it's not

Josh Pack:

growth for growth's sake, it's growth, because traditional

Josh Pack:

forms of credit have been retracting from the market

Josh Pack:

overall. So private credit has kind of filled that void, in

Josh Pack:

basically kind of keeping the gears of the economy lubricated.

Matt Waller:

Are your funds set up, like what you would expect

Matt Waller:

for an alternative investment where you have LPs and a general

Matt Waller:

partner, and

Josh Pack:

Yeah, we have the majority of our funds are closed

Josh Pack:

end funds. So you know, they have a life to them. So our our

Josh Pack:

private credit funds have a six year life, our our credit

Josh Pack:

opportunities, funds, where we do some of these, you know, more

Josh Pack:

esoteric investments and more, more distressed types of

Josh Pack:

investments, those have a 10 year life. And these funds, you

Josh Pack:

know, we aggregate kind of LP commitments, and then we, as the

Josh Pack:

GP, manage the investment of that capital, we do have a

Josh Pack:

couple of open ended funds. One is called drawbridge, which is

Josh Pack:

our evergreen hedge fund. And then we have some other vehicles

Josh Pack:

that we've been kind of in the process of, of developing, both

Josh Pack:

here and in Japan, which are going to be more the evergreen

Josh Pack:

structure as well.

Matt Waller:

Joshua, would you mind speaking to your

Matt Waller:

investments and activity in supply chain?

Josh Pack:

Yeah, sure, I mean, most of our activity, and and

Josh Pack:

frankly, there has been a lot of activity, particularly over the

Josh Pack:

past few years, you know, with with kind of the chaos that the

Josh Pack:

COVID created, but most of our activity is in shipping. And

Josh Pack:

then also on the real estate side, with respect to either

Josh Pack:

kind of owning, or in some cases, actually building large

Josh Pack:

distribution centers for you know, for the big guys out

Josh Pack:

there, you know, all the do you think about the large, you know,

Josh Pack:

ecommerce folks and some of the other people, you know, we've

Josh Pack:

we've done kind of built a suit programs with those groups to

Josh Pack:

help them expand, you know, their logistics empire, people

Josh Pack:

always ask me like, Well, why do they work with a group like

Josh Pack:

fortress? You know, aren't you expensive? And, you know, we're

Josh Pack:

certainly not the cheapest cost of capital. But when you think

Josh Pack:

about, you know, some of these integrated, you know, Technology

Josh Pack:

and Logistics businesses, and you know, where they spend $1

Josh Pack:

like, is it better to trap $1 in some bricks and mortar and

Josh Pack:

concrete on an asset? Or is it better to invest in a streaming

Josh Pack:

platform business or to take that dollar and invest it in

Josh Pack:

some sort of cloud computing business, or retail marketing

Josh Pack:

business, and it ends up being that they'd much rather use that

Josh Pack:

dollar and not invested in fixed asset. On the shipping side? You

Josh Pack:

know, shipping is a very dangerous place to invest.

Josh Pack:

There's, there's lots of people that have lost lots of money

Josh Pack:

over the years, but we have, we have some great relationships,

Josh Pack:

and we've been very successful and in kind of being able to buy

Josh Pack:

shipping assets, and that's either, you know, dry goods and

Josh Pack:

bulk shipping or even liquid container shipping, and then,

Josh Pack:

you know, hopefully selling at the top. We have a great track

Josh Pack:

record in there. One of the really interesting deals that

Josh Pack:

we've done recently, during the COVID crisis, we bought a bunch

Josh Pack:

of wide body aircraft from a major airline that needed

Josh Pack:

liquidity. So we bought about a dozen of those airplanes. At

Josh Pack:

that point in time. The market for that was very, very low.

Josh Pack:

Obviously the the you know the airline industry was pretty much

Josh Pack:

shut down. And what we could have done is kind of waited for

Josh Pack:

the market to recover and then put those airplanes under lease.

Josh Pack:

But what we're actually doing with them is we're converting

Josh Pack:

them to cargo planes, which have, you know, significantly

Josh Pack:

much more demand now. And what this has actually done is it's

Josh Pack:

actually grown into a business for us, where we are now

Josh Pack:

converting other people's planes, not only our own but

Josh Pack:

other folks into into cargo.

Matt Waller:

This is such an interesting business, Fortress.

Matt Waller:

Would you mind speaking a little bit to your career? And how did

Matt Waller:

you get here?

Josh Pack:

I get asked a lot, you know, what should people be

Josh Pack:

doing? Or what's the career path? And, you know, of, of

Josh Pack:

entering kind of the investment world? The straight answer is

Josh Pack:

there isn't a, there isn't a clear delineated path. I mean,

Josh Pack:

everybody has their own story. You know, just because you go to

Josh Pack:

a great school, and you do X, Y, and Z doesn't mean you're going

Josh Pack:

to be successful. Starting off in life, I don't think anyone

Josh Pack:

would probably expect for for me to be where I am. The short

Josh Pack:

story is that I grew up in a military family. That was kind

Josh Pack:

of the only direction that I ever really thought about, you

Josh Pack:

know, I watched, you know, Top Gun as a, as a 11 year old or 12

Josh Pack:

year old, you know, 50 times and figured I wanted to fly jet

Josh Pack:

planes. So, when I graduated high school, I went to the Air

Josh Pack:

Force Academy. And after a period of time there, I decided

Josh Pack:

that this isn't what I wanted to do. So I left there, and I kind

Josh Pack:

of bounced around for a while, you know, I did kind of four

Josh Pack:

schools in five years, and kind of had a midlife crisis that,

Josh Pack:

you know, 21, 22 years old, and, and then when I, when I finished

Josh Pack:

school, I got a job. It was financial phone sales, where you

Josh Pack:

were trying to kind of convince companies to, to lease back

Josh Pack:

their computer equipment and other things. And it was, it was

Josh Pack:

kind of a miserable job. But it was a great experience, because

Josh Pack:

I got to learn to communicate. And I got to learn to talk on

Josh Pack:

the phone. And I got to learn how to, to market myself and how

Josh Pack:

to peel back layers of a corporate organization and find

Josh Pack:

out who's really making decisions and who's really

Josh Pack:

important at the end of the day. And, you know, back in those

Josh Pack:

days you used to look at the classified ads. And I found an

Josh Pack:

ad that seemed interesting. Five friends from different

Josh Pack:

investment banks coming together in northern San Diego, and to

Josh Pack:

start a company that was going to make loans to branded

Josh Pack:

businesses. So franchise types of businesses, I was able to

Josh Pack:

join as kind of their first employee as their second

Josh Pack:

employee, I hung around for a year. And then you know, some of

Josh Pack:

the other partners that left hooked up with with Peter and

Josh Pack:

Fortress and said they were going to do this, this thing on

Josh Pack:

the credit side and I went out with them in 2002, and then

Josh Pack:

plugged into Fortress as soon as we started the fund. You know, I

Josh Pack:

think I think investing is somewhat of a skill.

Matt Waller:

Would you mind speaking to the culture of

Matt Waller:

Fortress?

Josh Pack:

We're a very flat organization, when we have our

Josh Pack:

credit committee meetings, to just make investment decisions.

Josh Pack:

We open it up to the entire firm, you know, everyone from

Josh Pack:

the interns, to the new analysts to the senior managing partners.

Josh Pack:

And we want, we want dialogue, we want criticism we want, you

Josh Pack:

know, we want somebody that maybe has never done a legal

Josh Pack:

asset, maybe somebody in our real estate group, and we have a

Josh Pack:

legal we have a litigation, litigation asset type of

Josh Pack:

opportunity that we're looking at. And he's not in that group.

Josh Pack:

And he really knows nothing about it. But he's got four or

Josh Pack:

five questions, you know, we want him to ask those questions.

Josh Pack:

You know, we want our intern, you know, maybe, maybe she's,

Josh Pack:

you know, had some experience with some business before we

Josh Pack:

want her to speak up. We really like having this kind of open

Josh Pack:

dialogue and open kimono type of investment structure where it's

Josh Pack:

very transparent. And you know, there's there's no real

Josh Pack:

hierarchy about it. Everybody has a view and everybody's

Josh Pack:

welcome to present an opinion. And then within the firm itself,

Josh Pack:

you know, these 25 different kinds of businesses or platforms

Josh Pack:

that we have that exists within fortress, you know, a lot of

Josh Pack:

them are developed internally. You know, Jack Newmark, who

Josh Pack:

recently was appointed as the managing partner, he created our

Josh Pack:

litigation and finance business in our litigation assets

Josh Pack:

business, and he did it over the past, you know, 1215 years, and

Josh Pack:

now it's a, you know, it's a three to $4 billion platform

Josh Pack:

within our company, everybody at the firm to can see that, you

Josh Pack:

know, shoot, you know, maybe one day you can be CEO, or when they

Josh Pack:

you can be running one of these platforms. So, we like having

Josh Pack:

that upward mobility within the organization, we tend to bring

Josh Pack:

people in to the company, when they're younger, when they're

Josh Pack:

more junior, and, and kind of instill in them the Fortress DNA

Josh Pack:

and kind of train them up. We haven't really had that much

Josh Pack:

success bringing in senior folks from the outside, unless there's

Josh Pack:

a real specific kind of business need, or somewhere where we just

Josh Pack:

don't have any expertise. And frankly, we have a lot of

Josh Pack:

tenure. You know, the senior management team has been

Josh Pack:

together for more than 15 years, some of us have been together

Josh Pack:

for 25 years. You know, at the same time, you want to be in a

Josh Pack:

place that that, that you're having fun, you're still finding

Josh Pack:

interesting and and you're able to kind of you know, still get

Josh Pack:

that still get that buzz or still get that high off of going

Josh Pack:

out and making a successful investment in seeing it come to

Josh Pack:

fruition.

Matt Waller:

Well, Joshua, this has been so interesting. Thank

Matt Waller:

you so much for taking time to visit with us and

Matt Waller:

congratulations on your remarkable career.

Josh Pack:

Well, thanks for having me.

Matt Waller:

On behalf of the Sam M. Walton College of

Matt Waller:

Business, I want to thank everyone for spending time with

Matt Waller:

us for another engaging conversation. You can subscribe

Matt Waller:

by going to your favorite podcast service and searching.

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Be EPIC Podcast
Welcome to the Be Epic Podcast featuring Brent Williams, interim dean of the Sam M. Walton College of Business at the University of Arkansas. In each episode, you will hear from guests that will inspire you to be epic. As experts in their field, they will emphasize strategy, leadership, and entrepreneurship. This programming will highlight innovation and cutting-edge information that will leave you wanting more. Be sure to connect with Brent Williams on LinkedIn to join the conversation, access show notes and discover fantastic bonus content.